Curse

saphir · Nov 23, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Rosette

It's a pain in the ass when anyone in the group leaves, that's what people
seem to forget. It's just more noticable when we leave/drop because we have
a utilitarian use to other players.

exactly. and that's one of the things i believe most other classes don't feel as much when they're playing on team. usually a group only has the minumum number of monks required for an area (between 1-2). i monk exclusivley in UW these days and i often feel obligated to stay even if i'm stuck with a bad group.

often when a ele or necro leaves, hardly anyone notices. if a tank leaves, w/ a good monk, anyone caster can still play as the aggro tank. the other players don't have to be too good, only the monk(s) keeping the tanking player alive. however, if monks leave a party, pretty much everyone else must be good players for the party to keep going, especially if no one is carrying reusable rez skills like rebirth.
that's not to say that monks are required for every party. that's not even true of UW. i've been in many parties as an ele w/ an excellent tank and casters and we've done quite well after all the monks are gone.

so while a good monk can hold a bad team together, it does not work the other way around. without a monks, everyone one the team will have to be good - that includes knowledge of aggro range, self heals, stances, prots, wards, and when to run and when to fight.

another thing is that ignorance breeds idiocy, and much of that spawns this monk hate. especially those who lie dead on the ground crying "res me res me monk!" probably have no clue that many monks carry rebirth in difficult high level areas which
1. takes 8 sec to cast
2. wipes monk energy to 0
3. only brings you back with a tiny portion of your hp and energy
any good player will not be rebirthing in the middle of battle in places like UW or defend north kryta as they are usually constantly spamming spells to keep the survivors alive.

to the selfish player crying for the monk to res them, they:
- think the monk is either completely clueless to the fact that they are dead
- are sure the monk sucks and doesn't res, and doesn't care about them because they know they could be the hero and save everyone from the mob of 10 smites
- suffer from delusions of grandeur and self importance

this is the same ignorance that drives necro, mes and ranger hate as most players are clueless as to what their skills do. it's like the warriors who run in and then shout "nuke! nuke! nuke already!!!" having no clue that skills like meteor shower have a 5 sec regular cast time, not including prep skills like echo or any glyphs if the caster is slow.

the difference though, is that the ignorance and "me me me" attitude of these players gives them a flawed belief that a monk has something against them in not rezing their corpse or healing them due to lack of energy. that the monk is arrogant or bossy or self-absorbed when they attempt to explain the drawbacks or rebirth, cast times, etc.

the only things some players seem to understand are simple concepts such as "me no energy" or "exhaustion". although i've seen many a player fail to understand the concept of ele exhaustion.

twicky_kid · Nov 23, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

now that i think about it i very rarely get yelled at.

the only time i get yelled at is by the w/mo that charges 4 groups while the party stopped following him. then we walk by his dead corpse and keep on going. better off dead than arggoing another group.

coolsti · Nov 23, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

this is the same ignorance that drives necro, mes and ranger hate as most players are clueless as to what their skills do. it's like the warriors who run in and then shout "nuke! nuke! nuke already!!!" having no clue that skills like meteor shower have a 5 sec regular cast time, not including prep skills like echo or any glyphs if the caster is slow.

Makes me think about the warrior in our group, after we have been playing in FOW for over an hour with one Ele in the party, who yelled out to that Ele to "Nuke Nuke" some worms we encountered. The Ele had to patiently remind him that she was a non-nuking air specialist. Uh, guess he hadn't noticed up to that point.

Plague · Nov 23, 2005, 12:42 PM // 12:42

It would be nice if the game was properly balanced so that monks were not integral to a team's success, merely an accessory. Same goes for Warriors. Yes, it can be done; no one wants to do it.

Rabid Weasel · Nov 23, 2005, 01:19 PM // 13:19

My main charecter is my monk, Weasel Monk just for reference. And one thing i can't stand is monks who join a FoW group or a full UW group, as in 8 PC's not a UW farming run and use a 55 or 105 build and wonder why they die so quickly!

Had two of them in a PuG yesterday and both left straight after they died moaning at me for not healing them.... errr... excuse me, your a monk too, not my fault you didn't have a self heal and died with one 57 dmg swing from a shadow warrior because that shadow mesmer stripped your Prot spirit.
Don't get me wrong, one of my builds is a 55 farmer i use to keep the Hydra population down, no, not so i can sell to people, but for my own personal gain as i want gold! But that's used where it's supposed to be used, not in a party of 8.

Anyway, when i'm on my usual full heal duties, I always manage my energy, without the need for a necro to BiP/BR me constantly (even tho it helps) and i always take either remove hex or mend aliment, espically for FoW/UW runs. The main "monk bashing" i always get is, i'm sad to say, from Warriors again. I can count on two fingers the amount of other classes have constantly bashed me for not healing/res'ing. Most casters or rangers once you've told them the reasons why you didn't instantly heal them will take that into account. But the majority of warriors will sit there and b!tch and moan about not being healed or res'd.... two of my pet hates are the type that spam their health when they go 1hp over half way... little realising that one WoH will bring them to full health... or the fact if i only have rebirth packed they moan that i don't res them in the middle of a fight!! If i had an ecto for everytime they say i'm a "n00b" after i explain what Rebirth does, i'll have FoW armour for my whole guild's 4 charecter slots by now...

I think it's a pretty much of a muchness really... their are REALLY bad monks out there, but there are REALLY good monks out there too. I'm not going to put myself into either of those, i'll just let whoever i PuG with decide.

Gwenhywar · Nov 24, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acheus Lokine

All the while the monk is running from a mob of monsters pinging "My energy is 1 of 30."

However, how many times have you seen a Mo/W or Mo/R who starts spamming "My energy is 1 out of 68", like 15 seconds into the battle?

Who only give you puzzled stares when you mutter something about energy management being superior to -1 energy regeneration items >.<, or just ask "what's energy management", and proceed to behave like uberleet healers ... *sigh*.

The fact remains that most monks I have seen in PvE are quite horrible. Of course, the same can relate to players of any class, it's just that the party notices and is hurt by a monk's inability to monk much more than by a ranger's inability to interrupt, for example.

Maxiemonster · Nov 24, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

If you want to get treated nicely and want to be called a good player every once in a while: Don't play a monk. Noone knows if a monk's good or not, unless they ever played a monk themselfs (which most people haven't).

I only play a monk because don't rely on others so much. It's maybe a bit rude to say, but something like 80% of the people suck, including 80% of the monks, that's why I'd rather heal myself.

unamed player · Nov 24, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Oh stop crying about the monk abuse. Its as if you only play one character. Personally i love playing my monk if the team sucks really hard. It maximizes my skill usage to make up for their suckyness. Yes you always have your idiotic war who runs in or the teamates who blame you for everything in the end bla bla bla. In the end you know how good you truly are and if you can manage to keep a useless team of retards alive then its something you should be even more proud of. What bothers me is the occasional monk who only has like one other character and only made a monk so he can feel needed and wanted. Personally my motto is if you want the job done right..you do it for your damn self. As only rarely you'll meet a monk that you can actually respect. The rest act like a bunch of spoiled bratts rubbing their class in as if no one else has a monk in the entire game..blahh!

You wont get respect because YOU chose to play a healer. Play all the classes with no expectations and as another team member..not as "Hey im the monk im holy and worth more then all of you". Your not the pinnacle of your team and you alone as a monk are worthless. This is a team game and everyone works together. Same thing for the poor mesmers.. no one ever takes them in the group yet they are some of the best players in the game...well some of them

ArtificialAngel · Nov 24, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

sigh..... i am a mesmer. a domination to be exact. and i can take SoF and near by places patrol groups by myself. backfire, arcane echo, empathy, and any giving fire spells i have that day are amazing. the best way to kill something is to let it do it itself.
as for the monk tho, let this be something for all u uberconfident non monk players that think your amazing. maybe you are, but if a monk says dont go that far, or wait a sec, or dont aggro them, or im not ready, listen to them. it means they cant cover you and if you aggro something, your more than likely going to screw over the group. and you no what? this makes it your mistake, not the monks. if your the only one who dies, and you dont get rezd, it aint b/c of spite. the monk thinks that they would be better w/o u blowing it. at the very least, they are going clear the area b4 they rez u. it drains a monk to rez someone and puts them in extreme danger. and if u wna b rezd, there is a good chance that YOU could kill the whole team. the monk is not the king pin. the monk is just a player like everyone else. if your so awsome and you die cause you cantr take the load, dont get mad at the monk for lasting longer than you. we try, we try hard. and if this means letting a tanks health drop to a less-than-half level because the monk is pressed for energy and they are saving up to use a full party heal, then so be it. have patience people.
i play my monk like a play my mesmer. ill analyze the situation before i go in. prepare the needed spells and pick my targets carefully. and i cant stand it when ppl just ignore their team and constantly aggro things. sure my way makes for a slower game, but my group is usually good. i am at HoD and im glad to say that i have only lost PC's enough to count on one hand. this does not include galrath b/c i dont count that quest.

TheOneAndOnlyX · Nov 24, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I'm sort of pissed at monks too, one time for ring of fire (I'm a necro/monk) and became a full healer and protector and there was another monk who was a primary and all he did was heal himself I'm the one who was doing all the work

But then again you find a fabulous monk and you should always motivate him or her and thank them for a good job and hopefully more monks will follow

coolsti · Nov 25, 2005, 09:23 AM // 09:23

If players want to be healed by the team's monks, then the players should be aware of whether the monk is nearby and ready for action!

I wanted to try out some new skill combinations and so as Monk I joined a team doing the Elona Reach mission. It went well in general, and the group finished the mission successfully. However, some things occurred which I notice occur very often in any PUG team:

1) Split group: not much discussion of which way to go in this team, and several times the team split into two directions. As the only monk in the group, I had to make a choice of who to heal and who to let die (if they couldn't take care of themselves). You want healing? Stay together!

2) Forward rushing: again, not much communication in this group. Several times the leading players charged on ahead to the next mob, while the rest of the group was picking up drops or just catching their breaths. What happens is the leading players take damage, I cast a healing spell, but it takes me many seconds to run over to where I am near enough to do the heal. You want healing? Communicate, make sure the team is near enough behind you.

3) No waiting: here again the usual problem; my energy is near zero and the leading players start the next fight. You want healing? Wait for regen.

4) Poor positioning: the group gets into a fight. The lead warriors keep bashing at their original targets and those around them. Other foes charge around the warriors and start to hassle the squishies. As only monk I would like to heal the warriors but there are two problems here: I am running around to save my own skin or the lead warriors are too far advanced for my healing to reach them, and to get to them I need to walk through the enemy. You want healing? Warriors protect the squishies and fall back if needed.

Playing strategically and tactically helps avoid lying on the ground bad-mouthing the monks

Zobi · Nov 25, 2005, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I made a Monk because the Guild did not have one at the time. I found it fine until I got ascended, with no real problems at all.

I have completed the game with him, as well as my other 3 characters, and now I only bring my Monk out to help Guildies or friends.

As soon as I pop anywhere with my Monk, I am greeted with about half a dozen group invites and a dozen PMs.

I'll nicely explain that I am there to help a friend/guildie, and then am greeted with a torrent of abuse in both local chat, and PM; ergo I change my status to offline.

I can see why all my friends who have Monk characters gave up playing theirs, and why Monks tend to go through post-ascension missions with their guildies. We are treated like "pieces of meat" before the mission even starts.

It is exactly the same when you are in ToA; you get invited by a group of 5 warriors, and when you decline their invitation, you are cursed in all four districts - they follow you telling everybody what a bad monk you are.

For those of you who have never played a Monk, and are complaining about them, I suggest you take a Monk to end game, and maybe you will understand the Monk's side a little better.

In my experience, Warriors and Eles are the biggest critics of Monks, and these are the two classes which have some of the worst players.

Be respectful to each other, and have consideration.

Peace out.

coolsti · Nov 25, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Been playing this game a lot for about a half year now, PVE only, and have 4 characters that either are finished or almost finished with all the regular missions. And a 5th character on a shared account underway. And this thought recently occurred to me: the great fun about playing this game when playing it as much as I do is trying out different combinations of skills, both from the primary and secondary professions of each character.

The trouble with this is that many players to team up with have some sort of expectation of what the most perfect build is for each character class, and then get rather annoyed when you party with them and don't fulfill their expectations. The problem is that this then leaves little room for experimentation or just doing something different for a change.

And this problem is of particular significance when playing Monk. Because everyone out there thinks that the Monk in the party is only going to heal heal heal (ok, as alternative: protect protect protect). How about a little slack, i.e. a little more defensive playing, so that the Monk can do something else useful as well? For example I made my Monk to be a Necro as secondary, because in the concept of "towards better health" I figured cursing the enemy with some of those great necro curses so that they can't do so much damage would require me as monk to do less healing. But in the last weeks of playing Monk, I haven't had any chance to bring along necro spells or use any time/energy to use them. Because the groups expect heal heal heal.

Oh well, I think I will just start playing Monk as I feel like, adding a little diversity to my skills. What the heck, everyone is clammering for monks anyway, so they can't afford to be so choosy and have to take what they get.

Damien · Nov 25, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

If people start nagging me about ressing in the middle of a fight i usually just say "busy"

Damon Windwalker · Nov 25, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

almost NO monks will offer to change their skillset.

To be fair, I see it happening frequently in SF.

obastable · Nov 26, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Ok... this might be a long post, and some of it might be off topic, but after reading through every last post in this thread there's a lot going through my mind. Bear with me here..

I've never been on the receiving end of "monk hate" with my Mo/Me. Though it was my third character through the game, I'm not one to look up other peoples builds. I make my own and test them out 'cause that's a fun part of the game for me. Thus far, I haven't had too many problems.. a little tweaking here and there but no big problems to speak of.

With my first character (Me/Ele) I was in many groups where the "monk hate" was flowing, usually from some careless person that wasn't listening to the rest of their party.

With my second character (W/Mo) my PUG grouping experiences were much the same as with my Mesmer.

I would guestimate that, over the 2 months I've been playing (not a long time), at least 70% of all PUGs I've been in have had at least one moronic member that blames their lack of attentiveness and/or skill on someone else in the group. Alternatively, only about 5% of the PUGs I've been in have had a moderately legitimate reason to complain about someone elses inatentiveness and/or lack of skill. I'm honestly surprised that, as of yet, I've not been the target of someone elses "monk hate". <-- love that term, btw.

I've only been in one situation where I strongly wished to not ressurect someone, but as the success of our party depended on it I was obligated to do so anyway. I absolutely hate having to attempt a mission more than once with the same character.

I only have two instances in which I will NOT ressurect someone, and that's 1) if the mission has come to a point where it's not neccessary or 2) during a fight (far wiser to wait until the battle is over or I'm a safe distance away to use Rebirth).

As for the complaints that Monks are underappreciated, I would have to disagree. Anyone that's looking for a Monk for their group obviously appreciates Monks. I've toyed with every class in the game as a primary profession, and the only class I have repeatedly been "underappreciated" as is a Mesmer.

Funny thing is, I almost always look for one when I form my own groups. They make life SO much easier in this game, in so many ways. A Mesmer can interrupt anything anyone else can throw at them, deal awesome damage, remove any hex and then use it against the enemy, steal energy, drain adrenaline, and heal themselves splendidly. Yet, for some strange reason, when it came to missions I almost always had to rely on my Guild for a party because I could rarely get into a PUG or get people to join (and stay) in a party if I started one myself.

I attribute this to the fact that people see Mesmers as optional. However, every primary class out there is optional when it comes to quests and missions. The problem is there aren't enough awesome Mesmers out there to make everyone and their mom want to play one, or rely on one as a vital member of their team. When I play my Mo/Me I always look for another Mesmer as their interrupts, hex removers, energy drains, and adrenaline drains make my job as a healer so much easier (especially if it's a 1 monk party for a high end mission). Much the same could be said for Necros and their incredibly useful hp/energy renewal spells, and Rangers for their traps and rituals. Those three classes are, in my books, far more useful and "vital" to a party than 2 Warriors, 2 Monks, and 2 Elementalists combined.

I think the cries of Monks being unappreciated aren't truly a result of being unappreciated. Rather, I think it stems more from the fact that not everyone knows exactly how to best utilize their characters from the get-go, and misunderstandings arise as a result, or are simply in a PUG with people who don't know how to communicate their plans properly. In both cases the grief is a misunderstanding, attributed to either mis-communication or lack of game knowledge. The Warrior that runs into everything like Rambo isn't "a moron that doesn't appreciate Monks", they just aren't as learned in the concepts of team strategy as you'd like. Believe you me, it's possible for someone to get to level 20, ascend, and beat the game without ever figuring this out. My 11 year old son has done it, and while I give him tips and advice I certainly don't play the game for him. It's his learning curve, if he chooses to play, and his W/Mo build would make just about anyone laugh and call him an "idiot n00b". I'm sure some people have, but that doesn't help him learn how to best utilize his class for a team strategy.

To those who like to complain about another players skills: Rather than whining about what people do wrong, it might work better to give them a few tips on how to do it right. They can't fix the problem if no one tells them what the problem is to begin with. I do not accept "you sux0rz j00 idi0t n00b" followed by leaving the group as a form of helping someone.

But those are just my opinions, and I'm relatively "new" to the game, so I'm certainly no expert on the matter.

SlayerD · Nov 26, 2005, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

However, how many times have you seen a Mo/W or Mo/R who starts spamming "My energy is 1 out of 68", like 15 seconds into the battle?

Who only give you puzzled stares when you mutter something about energy management being superior to -1 energy regeneration items >.<, or just ask "what's energy management", and proceed to behave like uberleet healers ... *sigh*.

The fact remains that most monks I have seen in PvE are quite horrible. Of course, the same can relate to players of any class, it's just that the party notices and is hurt by a monk's inability to monk much more than by a ranger's inability to interrupt, for example.

I agree that happen with some monk but i am anoy that after 10min of continuos fighting and warrior finally die and blame me, I was the only monk i have to heal him and 4 other players and i already ping that i need to regen after first 3 set of enermy [about 5 min or so of fightitng ]. I got max energy of 42 i cannot keep healing and removing hex for 10 min solid without regen

But to good side now, i have been in good PUG lately. I actually get thanks and good work from other player though mission like dune of despair thirsty river and dragon lair.
I definitly say the PUG have been improve but still alot of spam ivite to me which i found annoying.I am a player too you know i can choose who i want to go with, i am not just a henchie that u can pick at any time.

lyra_song · Nov 26, 2005, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I was doing abaddon's mouth with a PUG with 1 ranger, 1 mesmer, 1 monk and everyone else was a warrior.

Our lone monk was EXCELLENT. And even after many of the group died many times (i was at 28% DP most of the time) we still finished the mission, without any nukers.

Ive met good monks and bad monks (I did Thirsty river with a monk who did NOTHING). And i must say...sometimes an E/Mo is better at being a monk...

Plague · Nov 26, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

It depends more on how much damage everyone is taking. A monk is basically a warrior, except on health. You can't really do much as a monk except watch healthbars and use healing spells. Myself, I'm Prot/Heal, focus on Divine Favor and Protection. I use 5 energy spells to protect and heal at once, mainly. I see your health go down, I pick a spell and click. They all do the same thing as far as I'm concerned, since I've turned my protection spells into healing spells with an after-affect. The only thing you really have to think about is recharge times and whether to bring out Healing Breeze on someone or not, occassionally smiting a hex or healing a condition.

TGgold · Nov 26, 2005, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I almost never get hate as my monk, and he's a prot monk. I useually expect to be eaten alive when I say that, but nobody seems to care anymore, ^_^

There was this one time, though, in the Undead Hordes quest where I went full smite, told hte team I did, and was still yelled at for not healing some warrior >_> I watched his skillset for a while afterwards, and he was a W/Me with NO self heal. No signet, no ether feast, no nothing. >_>